mobility matters, s4 episode 3: green relo dreams – sustainability in motion

Andy: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of Mobility Matters. I’m your host, for the day, Andy Conduit-Turner, Director of Sustainable Growth Enablement here at Cartus. And today we are talking about one of my favorite topics, not just moving people around the world, but how we can do it more sustainably in a way that is better for all of our futures. So come and join me while I have a discussion with a very special guest,

A wonderful man that I met at Canadian ERC earlier in 2024. Dave Carlos is my guest today. He’s the Managing Director at Just One, a sustainability consultancy firm with a mission to spark positive change, one business at a time. Welcome, Dave. How are you?

Dave: Thank you very much, really happy to be here. I’m excited to talk about this important subject in the mobility sector.

Andy: Yeah, I’ve been excited to get you on since we ran into each other in Montreal. I feel like we sat down, and we were first introduced, sat in a room that was full of people at a networking session. They had to throw us out at the end as the last two people in there still talking about how we could fix the entire world.

Dave: I’m sure, we can. If we put our minds to it, I’m sure we can.

Andy: Exactly. So, I’m going to start with a big one for you. Sustainability and ESG [environmental, social, and governance] at large can be somewhat misinterpreted these days or a difficult concept to grasp in some cases. Can you clarify what we mean when we talk about these in business?

Dave: Yeah, so let’s come at this from a business perspective, first of all. So, your company might have innovative products and services, great career opportunities, an impressive brand and reputation, but to be viable, your business success depends on a thriving economy that shares supplies and skills. A thriving economy depends on a happy and prosperous society that can spend, socialize, think and innovate.

And a prosperous society depends on a healthy environment. We need clean air, water, food from healthy soils and seas. So, this successful dependency also means managing impacts on each other. So, if your business emits tons of carbon or puts waste into soil and water, you don’t have a healthy environment. You can’t get natural resources you need to manufacture goods. People get sick and can’t think or socialize or spend money because their basic needs aren’t met.

We see societies are fighting over resources all the time, wars and natural disasters, extreme weather and all those things will even disrupt your supply chain. So, to be a successful business, you really need to be a sustainable business. And more and more, it’s not just about doing less harm, but doing more good, putting more back into people and the planet so that they can really thrive. And we have to build an understanding of what is sustainable. It’s different around the world. We can’t have expectations, let’s say, in developing nations to cut your carbon dramatically or to have electric vehicles where there’s no infrastructure. When you think about being more sustainable, let’s say, in places in South America, sustainable there means supporting education, ensuring good food supplies. And there’s a lot of social aspect there over environmental. So, we have to really be fair in the way that we think about it. Have you, I don’t know if you’ve come across this Andy, but have you heard of the six capitals model?

Andy: I haven’t, please, please tell me.

Dave: Okay, it’s a great model. It really means that every business needs these six sorts of capitals to survive, every business. So we need, we all know is financial capital, the money we need to make our business run, manufactured capital, the things we use, the laptops that we’re on right now, intellectual capital, human capital, we need people in every business, social capital, the relationships that we have, I think almost every business will, you know, depends on those really trusted relationships, and of course natural capital where, you know, things from the earth are needed for every business to run. So, every business that takes in these capitals, they do something to that within their business and then churns them out in some form. And managing that churn and making sure the form that comes out is a positive one, not a negative one, not waste or unhappy people or things like that, you know, that managing that churn is vital to your business success and that is sustainability, I see.

Andy: Wonderful. So, let’s bring this into the mobility space in particular then. Why should businesses be building an ESG strategy into their mobility program and their policies that support them?

Dave: Okay, good question. I’ll take it from a broader business aspect and then try to relate it to mobility here. There are a lot of risks and opportunities around sustainability. And so, starting with the kind of risks, let’s look at things like legislation. There’s stricter environmental regulation coming from across the world. I think laws will change all the time, but what the trend we’re seeing is that just generally there will be more and more because there are more risks involved. Governments worldwide are imposing stricter emission standards, green taxation, carbon pricing, and non-compliance to these things can really lead to fines and litigation and sometimes even operational bans. We’re seeing a lot more greenwashing laws. You can’t just say you’re green or sustainable anymore. You’ve got to prove it.

And, you know, we’re seeing more bans on fossil fuels, fossil fuel vehicles, excuse me. Many companies plan to phase out internal combustion engine vehicles. That’s a big impact on the mobility sector. Legislation is a big part of this.

I would say social risks are another. So, when we look at the mobility sector, it’s about moving people to these great destinations. We should be giving back to those communities, looking to spend money in those communities and making sure that we’re not doing any harm in those communities. And I would say another risk is around climate. We know, extreme weather is really going to disrupt the mobility sector.

Look at the floods in Valencia at the moment, fires in Australia and Greece, hurricane intensity in the US has increased. This is all going to disrupt business in a way of assets and buildings are being destroyed. There’s going to be a lot of travel disruption. Shipping lines for movers are going to be disrupted as well. Sea level changes are wiping out areas in which people can actually go to. Here in the UK, the government’s already planned on some coastal areas. We can’t deal with it; we’re just going to let them fall off. So, there’s a lot of risk that the mobility sector has to take into account when we’re thinking about moving people around the world and their goods. That being said, there are a hell of a lot of benefits as well to be gained from embedding sustainability principles in everything you do.

We know that employees want increasingly, and very much increasingly over time, want to work with companies that do more than sell stuff. They want to work for a company that has purpose. So, the top talent are really looking for those companies and applying for them. If your business doesn’t even have a strategy or plans for sustainability on the website, they won’t even bother applying, DEI [diversity, equity, and inclusion) included.

There’s a lot of cost savings involved from, you know, saving on your energy bills. Retaining staff is a big cost saving as well. Here in the UK, I think, I forget what the number is, I think it’s about $30 to $35K a business loses every time an employee leaves from, you know, hiring again, re-skilling, getting that next person up to speed. There’s a great competitive advantage from differentiating from your business, from your peers, if you really embed sustainability in everything you do.

We know there’s a lot of brand power in it. You’re really future proofing your business as well. There’s a lot of changes that are coming. When sustainability is great at giving your business this long-term outlook rather than short-term monetary gains, and when you have that long-term outlook, you’re able to ride the waves of change really easily. You saw companies who had that long-term outlook during COVID, they were really able to succeed because they had processes in place that could ride those waves of change. They even pivoted to purpose. When they weren’t able to sell their stuff, they focused on why they existed and started to help people. And all of this said is really going to help grow profits. Let’s not ignore that. The most successful businesses in the world, in terms of profitability, are ones that understand multiple impacts.

The mobility sector, I would say, is, through all our research, is lagging behind other sectors for various reasons we can talk about, but I think there’s a lot of risk to be managed, a lot of benefits to be gained. And, you know, we really should focus on some of those wider issues if we’re going to let our businesses thrive.

Andy: Absolutely. I think, you know, in summary, that balance there of the mitigation of risk looking to play a role in reducing those very, very disruptive factors that cost individual businesses, our entire economies a lot just in recovery from disaster, but also the disruptive factors, the risk, the risk calculation it gives to when you’re looking to move into certain markets, they’re huge. Then as you say that opportunity to engage your customers, engage your team and be part of a bigger solution. We know a lot of the organizations we work with at a corporate or a fundamentally top level have a sustainability policy. Seeing that filter into the mobility teams, I think an incredibly powerful tool that could make mobility a real ally and a real contributor to those companywide solutions that people are putting in place. Rather than, a hotspot to be addressed once people have dealt with all of their approaches to their primary suppliers, their farmers, their miners, their chemical component manufacturers they’re working with. Making sure that we’re on board before the spotlight is very firmly fixed upon you can only be a good thing.

Dave: Yeah, you know your question, why do it? Why embed it in your business? It just makes sense. I used to say it makes business sense, but no, it just makes sense. Sustainability isn’t about saving the planet. It’s about saving ourselves, you know. We need a really happy, healthy society and happy and healthy people to really do our jobs well. There’s no business on a dead planet, as they say.

I truly believe business holds the key to solving some of the world’s biggest problems. Governments are definitely a part of that solution and they’re vital to it. But their mandates change every four years and so do their policies and laws. So, you know, for your business to thrive, you have to look at these wider impacts and, you know, business has a lot of the ability to change, to make some difference in the world. We have the structure, the organization, the finance, the skills, the people, the will to do some of these things. And putting a plan against it is really important to your business success. We should really strategize for sustainability like we strategize for profit, because it’ll only increase your profits at the end of day. And there are ways that every business should do this, no matter what your size or sector.

Andy: Wonderful. I mean, we talked about, we’ll get on to talking about how individual businesses are going to rise to those challenges and how we build that in there. But I think let’s begin as we look at the entryway to when we first start working with different businesses. I think it’s the topic you and I first discussed when we met here. We’re seeing it grow. We are seeing sustainability, and ESG at large, goals filter into procurement processes and discussion in RFPs. I can tell you from the world that I live in, we have seen the depth and the number and the weighting of ESG related questions absolutely explode in the last couple of years. And it’s also something that you’re heavily involved with as well, right? So, talk to me a little bit about how you’re seeing ESG working with mobility at sort of the RFP stages when they’re deciding who people should partner with.

Dave: Yeah, so just one, my company, we have been asked by the Coalition for Greener Mobility to advise and support them. So, the coalition is a group of six different association bodies in the mobility sector aimed at improving sustainability throughout the whole supply chain and to also really engage with corporates to bridge that gap of ESG knowledge and understanding so that there is collaboration. The first project that we were asked to work on is this RFP project where we’re looking at 500 questions that were gathered by the association bodies that relate to ESG and what we did is categorize those questions, no small task in itself, and then streamline those questions so that we can create minimum and best practice guidelines against each one.

And then of course also exemplar practice so we can have something really powerful to aim to. What we are seeing after that analysis is, we have a list of the top issues that have come out. So, diversity and inclusion was the number one. I think this also has to do a lot with that a lot of corporates are headquartered or based in the US where DEI is a much more important issue for various reasons or there’s legislation around it. Second one, unsurprisingly, is around energy and carbon. And the third one is around strategy development. Does your business have a actual plan around ESG to mitigate risks and capitalize on opportunity? Some other issues that we saw in there are around sustainable procurement. How are you procuring goods and services that are sustainable?

Certifications and standards is another question. I would say, my take on those are, they’re being asked through these RFP questions like EcoVardis, for example. And I think they are very good to do in terms of laying a foundation for your business. You understand, you know, kind of the broad issues that need to be addressed. But don’t take something like EcoVardis, do it and say, right, my business is sustainable. You got to use it as a foundation, build on top of it.

It can be a tick box exercise, but if you really want to create a successful business, you have to build on top of it and create a really great strategy that looks at the impacts that your business has in the world. You’re not the same as others. So, I would say that with the RFP project, it’s still continuing. We’re interviewing both corporates and suppliers to really unearth some of the issues and the challenges, and we’re going to be putting out a report later in 2025, probably Q1, once all of this is done, just to give guidance and some insights into what’s happening. And then, of course, the coalition is going to take further action to really help the sector improve.

Andy: Wonderful, sounds very exciting. We shall look forward to reading and sharing that report when it is available. Hearing you list some of those categories of RFP questions immediately brought to mind exactly that type of question that we’re being asked to respond to in an RFP, talking about particularly in the RMC space where so much of our environmental impact of course sits with our scope three and the engagement of services that we oversee and that we manage.

The sustainable procurement angle is an absolutely huge one for us. And also, not only talking about what we are doing individually, but how we roll those requirements and those interests up and down the value chain we’re working to. Incredibly important stuff. And then as you say, as well being required to prove and validate exactly what we’re doing and making sure that robust plan is in place has become increasingly important.

I believe in one of the last RFPs my team responded to, we were asked for a seven-year sustainability plan that really looked at what these things are looking at line item by line item, and obviously beyond when you look at net zero goals, as well. But I think more and more lots of the MNCs [multinational corporations] that we work with want us to be able to showcase that we have a very firm longitudinal plan in place.

Dave: I think it’s because also some of these issues to be addressed need a long-term plan. You can’t change something tomorrow, even in a year or two or three. Your business really needs to plan the resources and skills, and the partnerships needed to address some of these issues. And I think it’s the businesses that are doing this really well that are seeing the most success. So, it’s not just a case of corporates kind of forcing it down the supply chain. Yes, it is to a certain degree. And it’s helping with change. But I think the companies, as you say, if you have a long-term outlook, you’re going to do well in the long-term.

Andy: Yeah, as I always say to my ESG team, that I’m working with here, we’re in this for a marathon. There will be times that we make headway in miles. There’ll be time to make headway in inches. You know, unless any of us have done anything very, very wrong, some of the plans that we put in place will see most of us to beyond our time. As people continue to carry on the momentum that we start now and continue to see these projects to their, you know, their fruition and their conclusion when we actually hit some of these targets and goals.

Dave: One other thing, I guess, with this kind of long-term outlook, what we are seeing in multiple sectors already is that sustainability and ESG strategies and plans are becoming one and the same with business plans. That is just essential. If you pick one of the issues like employees, if you’re aiming to attract and retain the top talent, you might have great benefit packages or great development plans or great product and service that they want to get behind of. But as I said before, people want to work for companies that do more than sell stuff and have purpose. So, when you marry these issues along ESG, alongside business, and put them together. You’re able to achieve a lot more than you ever would separately. It’s a concept called total value that we use, just embedding sustainability in everything you do is just really important to business.

Andy: Yeah, and articulating that value is so important as well, making it tangible for those who don’t see the immediate pieces or don’t necessarily automatically see the full picture. Let’s take a moment to address some of our HR and mobility professionals that are hopefully listening along to our podcast, and they’re very keen to engage more with their company’s overall sustainability strategy and contribute within their own department in mobility. For someone who hasn’t addressed this before, where would you suggest they start?

Dave: Well, I’ll start with what we have found by doing these interviews, particularly with corporates, if that’s okay. So, I had a lot of conversations at the CERC conference in Canada, just with corporates trying to understand how mobility teams work with the whole organization around sustainability. And it’s not the best news. I would say many of the corporates who work in mobility, sorry, many of the mobility professionals don’t really understand or engage with sustainability in the wider corporate space. I would say that they understand that their business has a really great ESG strategy and are doing quite a lot, but it doesn’t seem to be filtering down to the mobility team that well. And also, sometimes through these interviews, I’m hearing that they’re not even being asked for the data that the mobility teams have, or even if they don’t have it, to ask for it.

For example, their carbon related with all the travel that they do in mobility. That’s not being filtered up or being reported on. So, there is a disconnect within the corporate. Now, the people in the mobility sector, I think should really not wait to be told by the rest of the business to be asked for information or be told what to do.

I think there’s an opportunity here to just start engaging with the rest of the business to make sure that information is really fed up upwards so that it is reported well. So that they’re capturing the data and can manage it, that they can demonstrate that their teams are actually more business viable for all the reasons we talked about before in terms of mitigating risks and opportunities. And I think that engagement with the rest of the business is really needed. And then vice versa. The mobility teams are the ones to work with the supply chain. Let’s collaborate and work together to try to solve some of these problems. The mobility teams and corporates are the middle ground, and I think a vital linchpin to solving this disconnect in the mobility sector. So, I would say don’t wait to be the requirement. Get in there and try to solve some of this yourself and make the connections.

Andy: Yeah, come and knock on the door with a solution, right? I think, yeah, a really powerful way that we can get that attention and get that stronger engagement. For where my team and my colleagues sit in the RMC space, I’m very happy to report we are working with a number of organizations where we are seeing that engagement grow. We have one client who we’re just actually welcoming to start working with as one of my tasks for the New Year when we begin working together will be to sit down with them and as part of our overall joint strategy to have a very specific joint ESG strategy that we as an RMC, and the corporate organization, want to build out together, which is specifically designed to inject and improve the sustainability of their relocation program. We have a number of clients who we work with today that take great interest in reporting up the impact of the use of well-established programs like “Discard and Donate” and being able to share with their wider business the articulated value, the carbon emission reductions, the volume of the movers that have used the service, the physical weight of things that have been not shipped unnecessarily or have been donated to worthy causes rather than sent to landfill.

And we had one project just a few months back now, where one of our clients is looking at the impact of some policy changes, they were making. One of the outputs they asked us to help them develop and to be able to communicate to their wider business was taking not just the things of, “Hey, what does this do to user satisfaction? What does this do to the bottom line in costs that we’re paying?” But they asked us to support them in calculating with some of our data what the carbon impact of some of these changes would be. So, we are seeing it filter and there is a really encouraging and exciting results. I think one of the points you made about not waiting for something to be perfect is a great example, being able to come in and say, well, this is what we can tell you right now. And this is what we aspire to be able to do in the future. It’s a great position to begin with, not be paralyzed by the fact that, you we don’t have everything down to the decimal place the first time you calculate it.

Dave: Right, yeah.

Andy: Being able to understand where we are and understand the baseline and where we can grow from is a great and, quite frankly, very exciting field to be working in, in ways that we haven’t perhaps looked to improve our programs in the past.

Dave: I think that’s a big, you know, hold back for many in many different sectors. A lot of companies wait till they have perfect data or have something really great to shout about before communicating outside or even internally to their organizations. You know, don’t wait for perfect. Just get on with managing your impacts. A lot of the time, you know, you can improve your data and information gathering over time, but let’s just start taking action and start being transparent. You know, say that “We are doing really well in this area, but we don’t have the information to do this other area really well. But we’re working on it.” Tell the whole story. And storytelling in business is really quite vital.

I was looking at how sustainability reports are being read or not read to its effect. Because a lot of these reports are just shouting about the great things that a company does. Now that’s all well and good, but when you read a story, you read a book, you go to the movies, you want to hear that the protagonist has a problem, that there’s a challenge and how are they going to solve it? And it’s that solving of a problem that is exciting in a story. If the characters are all just having a really great time and shouting about all the great things they’ve done, it’s not a story you really want to engage with. So, it is brand building as well. So yeah, don’t wait for perfect. Let’s start talking and managing.

And the one last thing I would say is around the push-pull. The mobility sector is quite unique, I think. The RFPs that are being pushed down to suppliers in terms of all the ESG questions is creating change in the supply chain. How that information is being fed up and used within the organization is still a question mark. But as you say, the mobility suppliers are also pushing that information up being like, “Look we are doing so good we’re doing these really vital things like ‘Discard and Donate’ like managing our carbon, you know, like looking at our people processes and how we can actually help people and destinations really succeed through culture programs or language and finance planning, all these sort of great things. So, I think there’s a disconnect between the corporate and the mobility supply chain that can be solved through collaboration and more transparency and more engagement.

Andy: Wonderful. I’m going to ask you a bit of a philosophical one now, particularly in the world of increasing flexibility within policies. We ask these questions of, “Where does the decision lie and who should hold the responsibility? Is it the company or is it the employee?” So, in those discussions of core/flex policies, where do you think the responsibility lies for the injection of more sustainable options? Is it with the business to provide them and mandate what is used, or should they be offering flexibility for the employees who choose their own services to choose to engage with more flexible services? What are your feelings on that?

Dave: I’ll give my take on it, but I’d love to hear your opinion on it as well. I think, well, let’s first of all start off with the one that doesn’t work. I think the lump sum option of giving an employee, here’s a bunch of money, move yourself across the world and your family and your goods. That is a tough ask. That employee has a lot on their plate. You know, moving is one of the topmost stressful things in a person’s life. And just to give them money and say, it yourself is tough. Now, when it comes to sustainability, it’s not going to be front of mind when you are dealing with such a stressful thing to begin with.

So, I think the company has to step in to say, “Look, we just want to see you succeed.” And we want to succeed in terms of our goals that we have as a business, including those around sustainability. I would say there is a mixture, of getting the employee to make some choices that they feel are helping themselves and being sustainable. We don’t want to take away choice altogether, but I think companies should make sure that those options are there and, in some cases, just make sure that the sustainable option is the only one. I’ll give you a little example going off on a tangent a bit, but I was listening to a talk by the head of sustainability at M&S once. Marks and Spencer’s here in the UK [British retailer] and he said, “You know in our food hall, we have eggs. Now, do we have caged eggs from chickens who are in you know, battery farms, alongside organic free-range eggs?” No. We just took away the unsustainable option because customers will just buy the more sustainable option, they’re not going to leave the store to go find caged egg somewhere else, to find the more unsustainable option.” So, it takes away that choice and it helps the world, you know, in various different ways and helps their business to also meet their goals. So sometimes just taking away the bad option is good, but I would say also try to work with your employees to understand their needs and what can help.

But I’d love to hear what you think as well.

Andy: Yeah, I love that example, the M&S one is a really powerful example. I think fundamentally when it comes down to the choices, like you say, it is a hybrid. It is about looking at sourcing the best options available. And then when there is a spectrum of options to really position and give the employees the choice but also keep it in mind with your own corporate culture and your own corporate goals.

So hypothetically, let’s say you have a company that is very firm at a corporate level that they want to operate more sustainably. Then why not include the wording in your policy that suggests, and we’ll use a nice simple one, vehicle transportation as an issue. So, “Hey, look, as part of our company’s commitment to sustainability, our default option when you rent a car is that you will get whatever the lowest carbon option is in the particular country you’re moving to, whether that is an EV based on the network availability, whether it is a hybrid, whether it is just a smaller size vehicle, most appropriate to the family size you’re moving.”

Giving people a choice is absolutely important but think putting that wording in there to align with what your culture and what your own policies are when you look at your mobility policy is an incredibly powerful tool. To make sure that you are advocating for the things that you are standing for at a company level. We talked about the requirement for it to be applicable, you know, as far as applicable in whatever country you’re moving to. So, there has to be some nuance in there. And I absolutely appreciate that if you’re moving with a very large group, having a two-seater smart car because of its very low emissions would not be practical for you and all of your baggage.

But having that right angle and then giving people the choices as well at a personal level, and core/flex policies are always effectively about a freedom and that level of choice within framework. When you give people the option just to do anything they want, that becomes almost a lump sum policy. Core/flex policies are designed to give you the guidance for the support that you’re meant to be able to have but then give you the options to customize that in the way that is meaningful for you.

Making sure we’ve got the right choices. And then again, there are more imaginative ways to do this as well. So, if you really as a business wanted to incentivize the use of sustainable products, then you could say, “Hey, for your shipment, if we use a shared shipment to make sure that we are never shipping a half empty container, then we advocate for those use of shared shipments. However, this may add additional days to before your furniture arrives in your new location. So, if that is the instance, then the business will make sure that you are not disadvantaged, and we will obviously extend your temporary living as required.” These are options that we could look at to really enable and to incentivize the use of some of these programs and also keep that employee experience together. But I also agree with what you’re saying about the company having some involvement here to make the choices.

Dave: Just in terms of cost that you raise too, is this more sustainable option always the more expensive one? No, it definitely isn’t. And it doesn’t have to be. I would say in some instances it is because we need to change the model, and it can be done. So, for example, let’s say sustainable shipping materials to have more recycled materials or biodegradable materials, they could be more expensive now, but what if, you know, a lot of moving companies got together and said, right, we are going to buy together, we’re going to increase the production of sustainable packaging so that the price goes down. We’ve seen this in other sectors, for example, the health food sector, you know, they’re moving from a lot of plastic bottles for some supplements and things like that, there’s a buying power together that has changed the industry, that has driven down the price of more sustainable packaging. So, it can be done. It does take engagement and collaboration sometimes with your peers and your competitors. But you know, it is worth it when we see what’s happening in the world.

Andy: Amazing. So, I have a final question for you, actually a final forum for you Dave. Anything finally before we wrap up that you’d share with our listeners that we haven’t covered?

Dave: I would say the main thing is that you’re not alone. There are ways in which you can do this. When you ask yourself, where should you start? I would say start with gathering information. Yes, that might be data but also listen. Listen to your stakeholders. Listen to your clients, your employees, your suppliers. Understand their needs, their priorities, their barriers in doing some of these sustainable initiatives or working with you. And then of course, lay a really great plan, strategy if you want to call it that, take action on it and vitally communicate your progress and your challenges. Don’t be afraid to talk about your challenges. If some of your challenges are around time, skill or money, there are ways around it and unless you talk about this really openly, you’re not going to find solutions. It’s not always really obvious when you’re in your business trying to deal with a lot of different problems yourself. So, you know reach out and there are ways to figure it out. And if you want any more detailed information on how to create a strategy for your business, no matter what your size, you could be three or four people, you could be a large global corporate, there are ways to do it, and every business can and should take action on sustainability.

Andy: Thank you so much, Dave. Really fascinating. I could carry on with this all day, but I better let us get on with some more work to finish off our day over here. So formal thanks to Dave for joining us today for this fascinating discussion.

Dave: You too.

Andy: Thanks to everyone who has listened along with us. If you have any questions on this topic or anything else we cover on Mobility Matters, you can email us at cartussolutions@cartus.com.

Connect with myself, with any of my co-hosts, with Dave if you’ve got specific sustainability questions on LinkedIn, we’re all over there. Any other questions, any other topics for any future podcasts, you can find us there as well. For now, I will say goodbye and see you all next time.